More Than Just a Dog with Si Wooler

There is a new episode of The Pawsitive Publish in Dialog about our particular relationship with canines with visitor Si Wooler.

By Zazie Todd, PhD

Watch episode 28 of The Pawsitive Publish in Dialog beneath or on Youtube, pay attention beneath or wherever you get your podcasts (Apple, Spotify), or scroll all the way down to learn a transcript of the highlights.

About this episode with Si Wooler

This web page accommodates affiliate hyperlinks which suggests I could earn a fee on qualifying purchases for free of charge to you. 

We discuss concerning the large modifications that persons are prepared to make for
their fearful canines, and why the canine’s relationship with their individual is
vital for all canines, however particularly the fearful ones. We speak about
what an awesome job Si does of serving to folks see issues from the canine’s
perspective, and we ask how he talks with purchasers concerning the canine’s
umwelt, or how the canine perceives their world.

We ask about how Si
determined the place to suit Sophie’s story within the ebook. And Kristi places Si on
the spot and asks how he offers with the outdated concept of dominance when
it comes up in dialog and what he thinks of poisonous masculinity in
canine coaching.

Extra Than Only a Canine: Understanding, Loving, and Residing with Canine, The Indispensable Information for All Canine Lovers
by Simon Wooler is out now within the UK and out there wherever books are
offered, together with UK Bookshop. 

Extra Than Only a Canine will probably be revealed in North American on Could thirteenth and is accessible for pre-order now.

The books we advocate on this episode are:

Additionally talked about on this episode:

The discuss by Dr. Lindsay Parker is the A&S Colloquium Kicking the Canine. 

The episode of The Social Canine Pod with Zazie Todd as visitor.

Zazie’s favorite bookstore, Black Bond Books. 

The opposite books that Si mentions are Sophie from Romania: A Yr of Love and Hope with a Rescue Canine by Rory Cellan-Jones, and Bark! The Science of Serving to Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Canine by Zazie Todd. 

Si Wooler has been coaching canines for greater than ten years. He
studied with the Academy for Canine Trainers, one of the vital rigorous canine
behaviour and coaching programmes on this planet and specialises in
coaching fearful and reactive canines. In 2023, he labored with writer and
broadcaster Rory Cellan-Jones and his spouse Professor Diane Coyle to assist
their Romanian rescue canine, Sophie, overcome her profound fears, bond
together with her folks and regularly uncover the world, a journey that was
adopted every day by a whole lot of 1000’s of followers.

Si got here to canine
coaching after 20 years as a sound engineer so loud barking hardly
registers on his private decibel scale. His personal fearful, ‘unhomeable’
rescue canine, Thomson, was the motivator for in search of out efficient,
evidence-based coaching strategies and leaving his profession in sound and
stage to deal with working with troubled canines and the individuals who love
them. That is his first ebook.

Si’s web site, Sociable Canine. 

Highlights of the dialog with Simon Wooler

Z: So, Si, inform us concerning the ebook.

S: Let you know concerning the ebook. Effectively, the ebook was very a lot impressed initially by the expertise of Sophie from Romania and Rory and Diane’s willpower to assist her. And we have been approached by our publishers, Harper Collins. I needed to look on the again to recollect. I can by no means keep in mind their identify. I do not know what it’s. 

However Harper Collins approached me, having seen the story of Sophie on social media, and requested if I might like to put in writing a ebook. And it is one thing that truly had by no means actually occurred to me, however I assumed it was very thrilling. And Nina was poking me within the ribs and saying, do it, do it, do it, do it, do it. 

So ultimately, Extra Than Only a Canine is known as a end result of not simply 10 years, effectively, in all probability virtually nearer to fifteen years of expertise within the discipline, however reflections on my training about canines, how vital it’s to know their studying experiences and the way they study in order that we may help them in a real manner.

And that is busting some myths, it is telling tales. It is serving to folks to attach with their canines, notably in the event that they’re going through habits issues. However normally, I form of hope it is an vital learn, however an pleasurable and entertaining and at occasions humorous learn as a result of I feel all of us want that in our worlds. 

And people who find themselves coping with canines with important emotional issues positively want to have the ability to take a look at their relationship in a lighter manner typically and get some respite from it too.

Z: I feel it positively is. I imply, it is very pleasurable and it’s humorous in elements too, which I feel could be very, very good.

S: Hopefully within the meant elements, which is all the time useful.

Ok: So within the ebook, you utilize a whole lot of storytelling about your individual life and your purchasers, canines of their lives. And one of many issues that stood out to me at first was simply how a lot you modified your life for Thomson.

So I needed to know, simply form of like reflections on what are a number of the favourite tales that you’ve out of your purchasers about what they’ve carried out for his or her canines? You realize, these large issues that we do for our canines.

S: Sure, I feel tales are vastly vital. And the tales round Thomson have been meant to indicate or illustrate that that is doable, that it isn’t insurmountable, the problem and the numerous problem that worry, reactivity, aggressive habits can current for folks.

My purchasers tales. It is all the time extraordinary to me simply what number of tales they’ve and the way a lot they consider their lives with their canines when it comes to tales, when it comes to their experiences collectively and simply how resilient they’re to it and the way they’ll nonetheless see the humorous aspect of issues that they cope with.

I imply, I only recently completed a two and a half week residential with a canine known as Troy and he is been six months within the UK and was so terrified that he hasn’t but really set foot out of, out of the home. And but the tales that come out of people that have canines like which are outstanding. So for instance, Troy and I found this to my very own amusement. 

Troy should be, he is a German shepherd canine, Rottweiler cross, with I believe a little bit of Jack Russell in there someplace as effectively. However he would, at 2 o’clock within the morning, this shy, retiring, nervous canine would run down the hall and throw himself spleen bustingly onto you in your mattress after which do some spin after which run off once more.

And lots of the tales that come out of lots of people’s lives with these canines are these little moments of pleasure that their canine exhibits. In order that little playful cheekiness or that the primary stroll is commonly one thing that folks will inform their story about.

What tales can I. As a result of the ebook has tales of sick well being and managing that, it has tales about discovering the willpower to resolve the issue, even when meaning going via six totally different trainers. They usually can nonetheless be witty about these moments the place issues simply go sideways.

So yeah, I imply, I feel that life tends to be about tales and positively folks’s experiences with their canines as a result of they’re members of the family, there are certain to be tales and I feel there’s typically tales of making an attempt to incorporate their canines in issues with the household and so forth and so forth that I feel is simply so endearing and simply exhibits how vital they’re to us and the way vital they develop into in a very brief time frame.

Did that reply? I am not even certain if that answered the query, to be trustworthy, however you understand me, tangent man.

Z: It leads very properly into our subsequent query really, which is as a result of your ebook is admittedly concerning the relationship between folks and their canines and we will inform that simply from the title, Greater than only a Canine, they are not simply canines.

So why is that relationship particularly vital for fearful canines?

S: Oh, that is an excellent query, I feel, as a result of actually what I’ve realized over time, working lots with each fearful canines which are fearful and hideaway, and canines which are fearful and select aggressive habits as a method to repair that, to assist them deal with that.

One of many issues I’ve found and are available to know much more significantly is simply how vital connection is for them, how vital it’s for them to really feel not simply protected within the atmosphere that they are in, however protected with the folks that they are with.

And people folks develop into what in human psychology they name safe bases. In order that your canine can really feel extra assured about exploring new environments as a result of they know that safe base is there to come back again to and it form of stabilizes their world.

However I feel equally, I am certain a whole lot of us know what it is wish to have members of the family or mates who’re affected by psychological well being points and simply how achingly painful that’s since you simply can not help however really feel a way of empathy for them.

And you understand, while you see canines, canines in apparent ache or worry, it is unattainable to not see them as somebody in want of assist, somebody desperately in want of help and sympathy and acknowledgement. And I feel that simply form of connects with folks. However the entire enterprise of creating a relationship is step one to creating it potential. And that is what Extra Than Only a Canine is definitely about, is making that relationship in order that.

Or giving, virtually saying it. You are not doing nothing in the event you’re simply concentrating on being with them, spending time with them, discovering out what they assume is enjoyable and making the most of that and simply giving them house and openness and option to develop into what’s an entire, utter change of their lives.

Notably if it is rescue canines, if they seem to be a rescue canine, this can be a full topsy turvy, flip the world up on its head second for them. They usually’re often canines that weren’t in nice emotional form to start with. So, you understand, my feeling about it’s that we have got into a spot in fashionable society the place our expectation is that if canines are upset or frightened about one thing, they will recover from it fairly rapidly. They need to recover from it fairly rapidly. And my query is, why?

Why ought to they recover from it fairly rapidly? I imply, ought to, ought to. There’s virtually a chapter on why ought to, should not, ought, or thrown out of the English dictionary as a result of it isn’t about what needs to be taking place or should not be taking place.

It is about what is going on. And that is what we have now to cope with and care for. And there should not be an assumption. There you go. I did it. I did it. I did not. Should not. We mustn’t assume that canines will get well rapidly. And that is Ripley digging up the couch that you may in all probability hear.

Z: Hiya, Ripley.

S: Sure. So, you understand, that is my large motivation. That is my large drive. Not simply on this ebook, however in all the things I do now, which isn’t only for folks to acknowledge the connection and perceive that the canines are a part of the household, but additionally to offer themselves permission to form of decelerate and really feel all the things that they do really feel.

As a result of dwelling with canines which are upset 247 is tough. It is actually, actually onerous. And too typically there’s criticism of individuals and there is an assumption in our society that if a canine is fearful or exhibit different habits that will point out that they are anxious, that one thing unhealthy will need to have occurred to them and it should be the individuals who did it. 

And fairly often that signifies that folks do not go for assist. They do not search for assist. And what I need to say is, we’re not judging you. We’re not judging you. In truth, if something, we’re supplying you with kudos for on the lookout for assist for you and your canine.

And we have to dispel that fable that every one canines that behave in that manner, that behave fearfully, have been mistreated. They will have been, however fairly often not by the folks which are coming to ask you for assist.

In order that’s vastly vital. Having empathy not only for canines, however for folks, too.

Ok: Our subsequent query is leaping slightly bit into form of, I feel we’re going proper from like, the wonder to form of the onerous stuff. However one factor that did come as much as me after I was, I am unable to keep in mind which a part of your ebook I used to be , however there was form of at the least point out of behavioral euthanasia. 

And I used to be pondering, okay, behavioral euthanasia can nonetheless be slightly little bit of a taboo matter, even amongst canine trainers who needs to be comfy with these conversations, you understand, so I need your ideas on how does this probably not serve canines or their guardians, the truth that we hold this as a taboo topic, and the way can we form of have these conversations in whereas recognizing that the aversive crowd tends to form of sling at us this accusation that we go proper to behavioral euthanasia at any time when there is a canine that we will not deal with, although that’s simply incorrect, you understand, and the truth that proof really exhibits that it is a very totally different story.

S: Wow, that is a very good query.

Ok: Possibly briefly we will simply contact on that earlier than we go.

S: Yeah, it is a actually, actually good query. And it is an vital one, I feel, as a result of it is vital to have the ability to say to folks, I do not take into account that it is my place to advise or advocate euthanasia. I’ve by no means had a scenario the place I have been required to try this. I think about there are. I think about some conditions are both simply so harmful or the canine is in a lot misery that that is going to be put up entrance and heart as an actual choice and should effectively have already been proposed by anyone within the combine, like Yvette, for instance.

My obligation is to say it’s an choice. It is an choice that is on the desk and in the event you resolve to take it, then you’ll get my help, unquestioning non judgmental help in that call.

The truth that the suggestion that as non aversive trainers we go straight to habits euthanasia as an answer for a canine that we will not handle is baloney. And I am going to put it on the market, it is baloney, folks.

I feel in that roughly dozen years of observe, I’ve had one shopper who’s determined that that was the way in which that it needed to go as a result of they simply felt the canine, their canine was too harmful. Like she wasn’t predictable sufficient in the home and he or she wasn’t predictable sufficient in public.

They usually have been simply, it was, it was attending to the purpose the place they have been extremely burdened they usually have been frightened that it was impacting on their place locally, in the way in which that the group seen them and their lives have been deteriorating in consequence. They usually made that call and I supported them in it, each informally and formally. It must be there as an choice for excessive instances.

However I’ll push again once more on that accusation that you just talked about, Kristi, as a result of if I am confronted with a canine whose habits I am unsure I perceive or I really feel like I am not making progress with it, my suggestion is not going to be put your canine down.

My answer goes to be, firstly, let’s have a dialog about meds. So let’s speak about whether or not or not there is a pharmaceutical answer which may assist us at the least. And the three of us know that remedy for canines, anxiousness remedy for canines, is designed to make behaviour modification simpler to do simpler and prone to progress higher.

And that is the dialog I’ll have with folks round meds. I’ll very pointedly say that I feel meds is a frontline choice, not a final resort, and we must always see what that does so as to assist us.

I additionally assume that if I do not perceive, it is vital to be trustworthy with your self and say, effectively, I do not perceive that habits. And then you definately go and also you try to work out why that is taking place. So that you take a look at, you do the 2 issues that truly I do not go into an awesome deal within the ebook, however it’s develop into more and more obvious.

And it struck me the opposite day, I used to be watching one thing on YouTube. There was a man speaking about form of communication strategies and issues like that. And really one of many issues that got here up very strongly was that it isn’t about speaking, it is about listening.

So you have obtained some sources with these guys who’re confronted with these actually, actually tremendous tough canines. One is to pay attention and the opposite is to look at.

So take heed to the human, the human aspect of the connection and watch the canine aspect of the connection. And often you begin to see, if you cannot account essentially for the habits, you begin to see someplace the place you could find an in.

And that observational stuff is admittedly, actually vital for me. My final shopper, you understand, that I discussed earlier, it was fairly apparent that he got here alive at night time. And so we shifted a lot of the work from daytime to nighttime. So it was 3, 4am within the morning that we have been doing stuff to try to assist him develop into extra assured. And that migrated into daytime.

However that is, for me, these are the 2 most vital issues to attempt. And there are many issues you are able to do earlier than anybody begins to speak about euthanasia. And it isn’t going to be me, is my rule. That is going to come back from the human shopper. They will say, I am unsure we will deal with this, we will do that. 

After which the choices will probably be we will attempt for a re residence. We will search for anyone who’s skilled in dwelling with canines like this and are ready to take the chance with all the crucial caveats and situations.

And if they are saying we’re pondering that one of the best factor is perhaps to euthanize her or him, then my reply is, effectively, I am unable to advise you to try this, however it’s an choice that you’ve. It is, you understand, and it is an comprehensible one. It is not one that you’ll get judgment for from me, and you will get full help from me. And in the event you want me to talk to your vet, then I am going to try this, too.

That was an extended reply to a brief query.

Z: Effectively, one of many stuff you touched on in there’s your interactions with the purchasers and your conversations with the purchasers. So to deliver it to a much less heavy matter, let’s discuss concerning the concept of a canine’s umwelt. And the way do you clarify to folks how our understanding of the canine’s umwelt can really assist to enhance their relationship with their canine?

So let’s use it with out the terminology. How do you want to speak to folks about how understanding what issues really feel like and are like for the canine, the canine’s experiences, how does that understanding assist to enhance their relationship with the canine?

Ok: I really feel like one of many strengths of your ebook was that, that you just actually introduced it all the way down to the canine’s POV. You realize, we have been doing a whole lot of life via the canine’s eyes.

And I feel that that is, that is a technique that we will actually, like, work with the people of the part, so. Yeah, yeah, however it’s not essentially simple to speak to our purchasers about that, so.

S: No, it isn’t. They usually’ve obtained a whole lot of preconceived concepts, and people preconceived concepts have come from some good, you understand, they discovered good studying for. They discovered good folks on the Web. They’ve additionally discovered some actually atrocious ones they usually do not actually know siphon them off, so they do not know what the filters are for good and unhealthy recommendation and good and unhealthy opinion, in the event you like.

And I feel it is about, it is a dialog. I feel that you’ve, as soon as you have established a rapport with them and truly, fairly often that’s on account of your rapport with their canine. Even when it is a canine that’s saved 15ft away as a result of it desires to shred bits of you.

So the truth that you might be centered on their canine and also you’re doing one thing to try to settle the scenario down and make the canine join with you, you understand, simpler with simply fearful canines quite than canines which have aggressive responses, as a result of it is a problem to discover a place the place you might be in, the place it is all calming down, the place you have obtained sufficient distance between you to handle the thresholds, in the event you like. 

However nonetheless, folks acknowledge your consideration to their canine and then you definately after which I. What I are likely to do is I am speaking to them about what their wants are and their challenges are and what their worries about it are. And I am becoming the answer that they are on the lookout for into their life. 

Hiya, Doglet. It is a doglet. 

Ok: It is Archer.

S: Who’s that?

Ok: Archer.

S: Archer. Hello, Arch.

So I am making an attempt to know what their fears and issues are too, as a result of we’re serving to two species right here. And if we’re solely involved about serving to the canine, then I might say you are within the incorrect enterprise. As a result of. And this is a contentious factor that can probably get some feedback. I do not assume we’re within the canine enterprise. We’re within the folks enterprise.

We’re about serving to folks assist their canines and stay higher collectively, stay extra harmoniously collectively, stay happier collectively, and perceive what it’s that is happening with the canine so as to enable for change in that. So quite than making an attempt to drive change, they’re giving canines alternatives and decisions and company and probability to cope with the atmosphere that they discover themselves in.

And for me, the human finish of that lead is so vital. It’s important to acknowledge the stress and the stress and the concern and the worry that’s taking place for these folks 24 7. You realize, within the preliminary dialog, I feel it is a large. It’s about listening and it is about figuring out the place the stress factors are, saying and saying to start with. Proper. How can we. How can we make that simpler for you? And arising with issues that aren’t about what I feel they need to want, however are about what they really do want and gearing the plan, the continued plan to that.

It issues to me. You realize, it actually issues to me as a result of these folks love their canines. They’re deeply distressed about what’s taking place. Generally they take it extremely personally. And I feel the very first thing that one of many first issues to say is, this is not private.

You might be really vital to them and you are going to develop into extra vital to them. They’re simply scared.

Ok: Yeah. I feel worry is one thing that. And I do know Zazie has really written concerning the science on this, however folks are likely to miss worry of their. In canines and in their very own canines, even. So it is, I feel, one of the vital vital messages that we will deal with residence for certain.

S: Yep, yep. I feel so, too. I feel it is about. I feel it is about not blaming folks, not judging them. It is about giving them house and time, and it is about successfully telling them they’re allowed to take time with their canine to assist resolve it.

Poor little guys. Hey, bless their hearts. Each final certainly one of them simply tugs at my heartstrings each time I, you understand, I’m going in and you’ll really feel and you’ll hear the ache within the human voices about it and the dedication, absolutely the dedication to resolve it as a result of, you understand, on the finish of the day, folks do not pay us to go in and assist them if they do not need to resolve that problem, if the canines are usually not so vital to them that they need to hold them.

You realize, the Sophie story is especially poignant in that sense as a result of Rory’s expectation was for a canine that he’d be capable of exit to stroll with as a result of he is obtained Parkinson’s illness. So it was fairly vital to train. And Sophie, as they thought, was going to be an actual catalyst to that.

And regardless of all the things, regardless of hiding behind the couch for months and toileting on. On pet pads and refusing to eat and in a while barking at nearly all people that set foot within the place, they have been decided that Sophie had develop into a member of the household. And you do not throw out members of your loved ones as a rule except you understand one thing actually hideous has occurred.

So I feel, on the threat of sounding like a damaged file, my focus is about household, is about relationships. And all the things that I do in sensible phrases, be it coaching or be it emotional shift, it is about altering that relationship. It is about making that relationship stronger.

Z: And I’ll soar in with a query right here since you talked about Sophie, one of many questions we needed to ask you, it is a writing query. So Sophie’s a very well-known canine that you just labored with, and also you waited till about midway via the ebook earlier than you actually began telling a few of her story in right here.

So what was your thought course of? How did you resolve the place to introduce Sophie into the ebook and the place she would slot in?

S: What a very good query. We had a really deliberate construction for it. Nina, my associate, is a copywriter. She writes, and we talked lots about collectively about what the construction of the ebook was going to be. 

It was vital for me that it wasn’t a retelling of Sophie’s story, that it did not Begin with Sophie. It wasn’t. It did not all the time come again to Sophie. Not that I do not love her. I do. She’s completely lovely. I fall in love with all of them.

However it was vital to have the ability to say that Sophie is not. What is the phrase? That not one of the canines concerned within the ebook. So not one of the tales and no canines that folks come to us about, none of them are dysfunctional. This isn’t about abnormality. That is about regular.

The conventional method to fearful stimuli, in the event you like, that these canines are behaving as they’d in the event that they’re afraid. Now, the truth that they do not have to be afraid is form of irrelevant. As a result of they’re afraid. They assume what they’re is harmful. And subsequently we have now to respect that as being their mind-set. 

And I feel Sophie was launched the place she was simply because that was the appropriate place to place that story. And he or she was going to be the fearful canine story, in the event you like. Though, you understand, a lot of them are. However I could not ignore it as a result of Sophie. Not solely is Sophie’s story an awesome one, however Diane and Rory have develop into actually shut mates. And with out Sophie, no person would have requested me to put in writing a ebook. 

So it was vital for it to not be about Sophie. Trigger Rory, aside from the rest, Rory’s already written one [Sophie from Romania]. And it was vastly trustworthy and insightful and beneficiant of spirit. And in order that would not have been the purpose. And it wasn’t the purpose. The purpose was to not write a ebook, however to put in writing a ebook that was to some extent, it has some. Here is the way it works. It has numerous. Here is how habits works. Here is what is going on on on this scenario.

However it was extra about serving to folks to know that so that they could be capable of make some progress with their very own canines or simply. Or simply make a fair nearer reference to their canines. And a few folks, I hope that learn it, may have a wonderful reference to their canines and can simply get some understanding of what the science and the precept is behind habits.

Such as you, you have carried out so effectively in Bark!, Zazie. And I feel extra of us have to be doing that. You realize, we have to be shouting it from the rooftops. We have to be saying, that is what is going on on. That is how habits works. It is not one thing that you just pluck out of the ether, but additionally that we acknowledge people who find themselves having a tough time as effectively. And to say it is doable, that is doable.

Ok: So Zazie, do we have now time for yet another query, do you assume, or ought to we transfer into the books?

Z: When you have time, you ask yet another query after which we’ll transfer on to the books and possibly we’ll make it. Attempt to make this one a reasonably fast query.

Ok: Okay, I am going to make it a quick. 

S: It is not the query that is the issue, is it? It is the reply.

Ok: Okay, so I am going to provide you with an opportunity, a selection. Now we have a pleasant beautiful one about writing kinds after which we have now form of a tough hitter and you’ll decide. What do you, what are you within the temper for proper now on the finish of our dialog?

S: Oh, you are going to hold going to maintain the onerous hitter critical as a secret. Arduous. Go for the onerous hit.

Ok: Okay, so pack management and dominance pondering is tied up with poisonous and hegemonic masculinity. So on this discipline of ours, which is essentially lady dominated, I used to be simply curious the way you construction your observe to handle these subjects instantly together with your purchasers. And the way do you form of consider the truth that you are working in a girl dominated discipline as you form of fable bust, if in any respect.

S: Wow, that is fascinating. Effectively, how did you, how did you describe that? The, the, the masculinity bit? That was good. That was nice.

Ok: Poisonous and hegemonic masculinity, which aren’t my phrases.

S: Yeah, hegemonic, that is an awesome phrase.

Ok: There is a actually good. Do you keep in mind the identify of the physician who did that basically, actually nice webinar who form of pulled this, the threads of this argument?

Z: No, I’ve forgotten. I’ll discover it and put it within the present notes.

S: Yeah, that sounds completely fascinating. So reply the query as transient as I can.

No, no, I do not, I do not give it some thought really. Apparently, I typically give it some thought outdoors of the session. However it’s not one thing that. As a result of this is the factor, the way in which that I sort out it’s I do not, except it comes up, proper? So I do not sort out pack management, the pack management fable, or the dominance fable except it raises its head. And it is often in a really harmless manner that that occurs.

So they are not, they are not pushing it onerous at me, however they’re victims of, you understand, that indiscriminate stage quantity of various data that is out there on the market.

So what I do is often by then they’ve had some large aha moments about how studying actually works. I’ve already carried out an introduction to how animals study via affiliation and the way they study via penalties and carried out some little, little examples and even demoed it on their canine if, if their canine is prepared to come back and spend a while with me. Doing it with meals. Proper.

So that they’ve already had some. Oh, wow, take a look at that. Look how rapidly, how fast that’s. And I’ve had a chance to say that is how that is working, that is what is going on on right here.

After which I can say there isn’t any proof in habits science for the dominance assemble to be true with home canines. They usually purchase in. They purchase in fully. There’s not even a. I’ve by no means as soon as had a battle over that one. They’ve folded.

How I often put it’s take that concept, put it in a kitchen drawer someplace, shut the drawer, lock it, take the cupboard out of the kitchen, put it within the automobile, drive to someplace the place you may throw it off the cliff. And throw it off the cliff as a result of we do not want it. It is not vital.

Ok: Speaking about tales, that is a really highly effective imagery.

Z: It’s good. Thanks, Si.

S: As for almost all of ladies within the discipline that. I do not understand it. I do not. I am such a liberal, you see, I do not. It would not, it would not sweat me in a manner.

And I feel, effectively, I imply, take a look at, take a look at the 2 of you. I imply, two mighty brains within the discipline and. Yeah. And to be trustworthy, I do not know what to say in that regard. I am form of relaxed about. I do not really feel threatened by both of you.

Z: Darn it. We did not provide you with onerous sufficient questions.

Ok: I can get higher. Give me an opportunity.

Z: Effectively, thanks, Si. 

This transcript has been frivolously edited for content material and magnificence.

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